manyeyedhydra
patreon
Course Correction for HoHH: Ending vs Checkpoints
🕑 Added 2021-09-10 16:41:45 +0000 UTCDon't be put off by the title. I'm not going Chaos and veering off in a completely new direction.
Feedback from the public demo and subsequent releases on Patreon has identified some common complaints.
1) Repetition on restarts.
2) A new player getting unlucky RNG and a 1st selection of harlots they cannot survive.
3) Lack of any kind of ending point.
I've been working on tackling 1), and I'm hoping that will be less of a problem with the accelerated restart options (I'm also looking to add The Madam's mulligan token explanation to that as well, as was suggested recently).
When someone raised 3) in an email, I thought about it, and replied with this.
"Complaints about a lack of an ending point have come up. I think I probably haven't helped myself with a very non-linear structure to the game. For other games, there's usually a 1st region, 2nd region, 3rd region, and while it's in progress people know that they're going to get region 1, then region 2 and so on. For HoHH all the region equivalents (factions, I suppose) run concurrently and the player is supposed to align with one and follow that route to that faction's end boss. Currently I'm working on completing one faction as a proof-of-concept to get to an ending. I'm wondering if I might be better off just having checkpoints - fill out to round 5, then round 10. I might put that to patrons later today. It might make for a better "endpoint" than a "we've run out of harlots", which probably doesn't make sense when there's about 40 of them! :)"
And this is that 'putting it to patrons' post. (And also on my blog for additional feedback.)
There are definitely some advantages to getting rid of that "we've run out of harlots" message. It made sense when there weren't many harlots, but likely provokes a 'huh?' from the player when they know there are nearly 40 harlots in the House and they've only seen 4 or 5 of them.
Having a checkpoint at Round 5 would also let the player feel like they've got somewhere rather than aimlessly trying out harlots until they get a weird message that they can't go on for any longer.
I can put special mid-boss encounters in these checkpoint rounds, which distinguishes them from the other harlots (they will likely have more sex scene options that are more than 'pick the right one or be drained to death').
Until I create the special mid-boss harlots, it gives me somewhere to put Hiru, Tete, Sorpresa, and the other more dangerous harlots, so they aren't murdering unsuspecting new players in the first round.
Currently, if I switch some faction numbers around, I already have enough harlots for 4 rounds + checkpoint. It would likely require writing some more hint dialogue for the Barman (to forewarn the player) and then a new ending passage. For that reason it would make sense to push v0.024 back to the end of the month as normal and make this the new, more player-friendly public demo. I might also try to be a bit more active in putting the word out this time!
There will still be new harlots as well. I finished writing the 1st draft of a new Doctoress creation this week. I might also get Volumpula properly ported over as well now I have an idea of how the mini-boss scenarios will work.
Essentially, in the short term, it means there will be a new release as normal at the end of the month, and this will be the one I want to make the new public demo.
Long-term, it's going to be a shift from going 'tall' to going 'broad' again. Rather than try to build a faction all the way to the end, I will be looking to add new harlots equally across 5 groups to get to the next checkpoint at Round 9, and then finally to the Queens at Round 13.
The work I've done with the smotherbus faction has nicely proof-of-concepted numbers and difficulty ranges. I know roughly how many I need for each group and can start filling up the other groups as the ideas come to me. I'll probably still focus factions while the ideas for them are fresh (I have a few queued up for The Doctoress's artificial beings), but I'll also be looking to fit the others in as well so it's not 'all fetish x' for a few months. I know a few of you have voiced concerns about this.
Anyway, let me know your thoughts below. It's a change of plans, but not a massive one, I think.
Comments
Definitely support building in a checkpoint/mini-boss soon
Many-Eyed Hydra
The current plan I have revolves around round ranges (with some overlaps). Tier 1 for rounds 1-4, Tier 2 for 6-8, Tier 3 for 10-12, with 5, 9, and 13 being special checkpoint rounds. Tier 1: Simple stat requirements (don't be 1 in relevant stat) or choices. eg Bebe Ansikt-Sitta, Nooru. Tier 2: Medium stat requirements or combinations of stats. eg Suffocatrix Mamilla, Veronicella. Tier 3: High stat requirements and/or protective charm needed. eg Tete Khantu, Hiru no-Koochi. The random distribution sort of comes into play for the later rounds. The main reason for the faction groupings is that they tend to have common mechanics and require similar combinations, and the more a player picks from a faction (as long as they go through with the scenario rather than taking a safe, early exit option), the more likely they will be given harlots from that faction to choose. eg. If the player starts with a high CONST value and buys the Iron Lungs charm early, for that run they should mostly pick smotherbuses and align with that faction as their harlots will be 'easier' than the others because the player already has the appropriate protection. It won't be a straight run. Some faction harlots might have different requirements and I also have a sneaky plan to add a little bit of tension to some rounds where the pick won't be so obvious or will require help from The Doctoress.
Many-Eyed Hydra
I still think I need to bulk out the harlot numbers with a lot of 'have the right stat/gift or die'. I'm always torn. I know the more complex scenarios are better and I love it when I can add a new tweak (as with the little code trick with Ygolia), but I also know the harlot production is a little slow and I don't want this to be a forever project that eventually gets crushed by its own complexity. The other advantage of the more simple harlots is that they can be clicked through relatively quickly on future playthroughs when the player has them figured out. I don't think I'll be able to implement a 'shortcut solved harlot' option in Twine, so I need to consider managing repetition. Having mini-boss harlots should allow for more in-depth scenarios. The way to solve repetition for them is to have multiple correct choices and different scenes. That way, the first time the player can pick the blowjob option. The second playthrough they can try out paizuri, and so on. While I haven't done one for a while, patreon polls seem a good way to identify popular harlots and maybe expand their scenarios or give them repeat visits. Now I've sort of worked out what I want the mini-bosses to be, I might elevate some regular harlots and give them more scenes if they're fan favourites. Another thing I might experiment with is adding some bonus extras depending on stats. That might make some of the harlots more interesting on repeat playthroughs if they behave differently if the player has different stats/attributes coming into the room. (Similar to how Sapoonis has a minor bonus extra if the player has very high DEX.) Hounds fit better I think. The Madam can happily fill that dark succubus role if she wants. Those are fun extras I do want to have. I don't want the player to feel too railroaded in their choices, and that includes giving them the option to run away, even if it leads to a Bad End. Maybe the Hounds have fun with the player. Maybe they bring them back to their Mistress (The Madam) for her to have fun with. One of Nurse Honey's scenes will be triggered by how many times the player 'uses' her. It might be fun to give the player the option of annoying The Madam enough until she steps in personally.
Jake
Hmm, I guess I'm going to fall into a a devil's advocate (succubus' advocate) role here. I do think there should be a modicum of tiering. The region/level 1, 2, 3. However that does NOT mean that there shouldn't be "dead ends" in each levl, but rather that the dead ends should not all be able to happen at the same time. For example, it's ok to put both Morticia and Panta Prota in the very first selection, as only an idiot would choose Morticia in that round. I think what you are struggling with, is what kind of difficulty level to ascribe to each of the harlots. My recommendation would be to first assign the difficulty level and then try to work out the random distribution. Example, round 1 has a 50% chance of a tier 0 succubus (Panta Prota), 35% chance of a Tier 1, 10% chance of a Tier 2, and 5% chance of a Tier 3. Once you've worked out which tier a harlot satisfies, then you can slide the chance of encountering a specific harlot.
Tiber Septim
To be honest I'd like to see more of the "pick the right one or be drained to death" at the moment. your survival seems mostly dependant on your stats and your charms. As I play, I like to feel that the decisions that I make during the encounter have as much impact on the outcome as possible. We have a lot of harlots in the game now. It's always nice to see new girls come onto the scene (especially the doctress's toys) but each time a new update comes out, there is aspect of navigate your way through the old stuff that you have already done in order to get to the new girls ASAP. Have you considered the idea of adding more to some of the girls that we already know and assume they have nothing new to offer? What do you think about the idea of Replacing the Mistress's hounds with a darker succubus who's wrath is clearly to be avoided and will unleash a darker, terrifying "sexy death" than most and giving the curious patron the opportunity to explore her consequences first hand? (At the cost of your life and soul of course ) Or just shrink them down to tiny size and have vak-yuuma come along and hoover them up? That gets my vote :-) That said, I'm really enjoying the game and there have been some really great updates recently. Always looking forward to the next update.
Joshua
I agree with the decision to go 'broad', I enjoy the variety of harlots. I've liked most of them, the smotherbuses weren't my cup of tea though, so it'll be nice to get a few more options
