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Bonus Mini-explainer: Gödel's Proof!

🕑 Added 2023-05-26 20:15:56 +0000 UTC
Bonus Mini-explainer: Gödel's Proof!

Comments

Mats Borges

Howdy! I'm trying to write about that same exact synthesis! Do you have any particular sources you like that talk about it?

Tim S

One thing I'd love some more help understanding is how proving the statement about just numbers proves the thing we encoded that way. Presumably it must be a very special encoding that proving the statement about these particular numbers proves the statement about statements that we encoded.

Nathan Borson

Duality is dead! Long live duality! There are so many implications and possible follow-ups, so I get the scoping problem! Like @Parker Bond, I went straight to Heisenberg's uncertainty principle (G="This electron has X position and velocity"). But this is plenty for one explainer, maybe ending with links to a few related (anti-)concepts. The mini-explainer did work for me, perhaps better than GEB, which I remember fondly but faintly from many decades ago. You've inspired me to dig in again, and synthesize that philosophy with ancient Buddhist teachings about the illusion of existence vs. non-existence (likewise true/false, good/evil, I/other, etc.). This mini-explainer strengthens my skepticism about all such dichotomies. Our minds strive to collapse the world of possibilities to yes vs. no, but every such simplification removes us further from sensing reality in its nuance and complexity.

Daniel Chin

It's always exciting to revisit this topic. Now have you read GEB? It turned Quinning into a school of art.

Vittorio

I enjoyed a lot this post, was kinda familiar with the proof and this was a nice overview/reminder! Suggestion for future posts: higher order logics

Vittorio

I had the same reading experience with these Hofstadter books, but after a reread of GEB I can only advise you to give it a second chance!

Ted

I liked this mini-explainer a lot, but then, I'm such a fan of this proof and the beautiful science that stemmed from it that it probably makes me a little biased. Reading Smullyan's book as a young student was the initial spark that led me towards doing formal logic and computability theory later in my studies. At the time I struggled a bit to understand Smullyan's book, so to make sure I was following the argument, I decided to implement the proof "for real", by writing code that would print the undecidable statement, following the book step-by-step. It was somewhat of a magical moment when I was done and I could look at a math statement I built "by hand" that essentially said "this sentence is unproveable". Even if that statement is, of course, completely illegible: https://desfontain.es/blog/proposition-indemontrable.txt At the time I also wrote a blog post (in French) to describe the process (https://desfontain.es/blog/proposition-indemontrable.html) and published the annotated source code (also in French): https://desfontain.es/blog/proposition-indemontrable.ml.html

Sid_Cypher

Since math was born of observations of natural world, like geometers just "measuring land" and herders/treasurers counting animals, and we still use it for practical worldly sciences thousands of years later, I think it is good that math is an open system, forever incomplete. It means we can keep adding and refinining knowledge from the actual observable world around us, the natural laws of which (like cosmic constants and symmetries) are also presumably and hopefully consistent. If our math turned out to be consistent, complete, perfectable, then that would philosophically, epistemologically signify that math is not curiosity, but blind pride and hubris, haha

Viniter

Hmmm... I think I get the gist. I get how the one-two punch would lead to the knockout, but I don't think I quite grasp the punches. The thing I struggle with is how you get from mapping letters onto the numbers, and doing what's essentially "string manipulation" using arithmetic, to making statements about the system of mathematics itself. I understand that real mapping would be more complex and encode a whole language, word definitions and all, but how do you imbue that with meaning? You're still just executing some complex arithmetic function F on some big number N and getting some other number M... how do you convince anyone thay "F(N) = M" has some implications about the consistency of the whole system of math? It probably comes down to my lack of understanding of how systems like Principia Mathematica work.

Josh Kushner

An amazing suggestion and now top of my reading list. Thank you!

Nicky Case

Oh whoops – another friend of mine got stuck on the same part, I should've been more clear on that part. "G" was referring to the same G from ~10 paragraphs earlier. If G says "There is *no* proof of G" Then if we prove we can't prove G, since that's what G *says*, that *does* prove G! I should've added a reminder of what G was at that point; will edit that for the final post, if/when that's released!

Nicky Case

Thank you for your kind words! > I wonder if am entire story can be written with a plot that is self referential and contradictory. That's a brilliant idea, and I think that actually *is* the plot of a few of the stories inside Douglas Hofstadter's "Gödel, Escher, Bach". That book has the dubious honor of "I think it deeply influenced me but also I only skimmed it and maybe read 25% of it in total, also I don't actually recall anything specific from it." (Hofstadter's follow-up "I Am A Strange Loop" is a more... straightforward read.)

Josh Kushner

Well this provided wonderful brain gymnastics for today! I wonder if am entire story can be written with a plot that is self referential and contradictory. A "Stranger than Fiction" plot could have a self contradicting conclusion where any character's journey narrated into existence must always be untrue, and yet it is true. It makes me feel free-will vs determinism tension.

narF

Was interesting. Thanks!

Parker Bond

Is the not being able to prove G proves G kind of like Schrodinger's Cat, where it is both proven and disproven at the same time? Or did the part before womp womp break my brain? (Yes)


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