eromancer
patreon
Proposal for Major Patreon Campaign Changes! Need Feedback!
🕑 Added 2016-06-29 10:07:12 +0000 UTC Hey guys!
We definitely would like your opinions and to see some discussion on this one! Some of you may not like the ideas we’re going to propose, and I want to remind you that this is just a proposal that we want your feedback on. That being said, we're considering making some changes to the Patreon campaign that we feel could be beneficial to everyone, so please hear us out. A few days ago we received news from Patreon that they would be releasing a major feature that I've been asking for for almost a year now, and that's the ability to charge patrons as soon as they pledge.
In a nutshell, this would improve things for us in a lot of ways. Our campaign is a pretty unusual one, and it often confuses new patrons (many of these patrons haven't seen a 'per creation' campaign before, which causes further confusion since they mistake seeing a $10 pledge as $10/month). For example, new patrons currently email me after pledging asking how they download the game. Rightfully so, as it is admittedly a pretty convoluted process. What then ensues is a string of emails, invoices, and manual record keeping. Basically, every new patron requires a significant amount of interaction simply because Patreon has some major drawbacks with the current design (when it comes to fitting our needs that is). Charging up front would fix this issue completely. All said, this is just one example of an issue I contend with daily due to the structure of the campaign, and all of these issues require a significant amount of time and energy that I don't get to spend on development.
To summarize, charging up front would fix these two glaring issues with Patreon and our current campaign structure's current design:
1. Patrons could no longer "sample" content. Basically, patrons can't gain access to the feed, download rewards, and then cancel their pledge without it actually ever processing.
2. I'd be able to pay my fellow developers more often than once every 3+ months (keep in mind it’s a tough sell to bring on new members as well when I can’t pay them regularly without taking on a lot of risk on my part).
These are both huge benefits, the first of which is one we've had to really work around (like having a separate forum for the Inner Circle tier for instance, when the Patreon feed would work fine if it weren’t for point #1). Now, here's the part where I really need your feedback! Patreon is choosing to only allow this feature for monthly campaigns. In an email they responded to my query as to why, and said that they would like to do this for per creation campaigns, but don’t have the inner workings figured out yet and don’t believe they’ll have it ready anytime soon. I can understand their focus on the monthly model is due to the overwhelming popularity of the monthly campaign model, though I've vocally not been a fan of this model because it gives creators the opportunity to exploit patrons. With their choice to improve monthly campaigns however it made us reconsider whether we could still provide the same (or better) experience while at the same time improving our situation as developers significantly.
To accomplish the above, here are the changes we are proposing.
1. Significantly reduce pledge amounts.
- The $1 reward would change to $1 per month, and remain the same.
- The $10 reward would become $3 per month. We may not have a major release every month, but we certainly would not have them more than three months apart. On months that we don't have a major release ready, we would have a significant Patreon update showing off content from the upcoming release. The bottom line is that patrons pledging at the $10 tier or greater now wouldn’t be penalized by the new model.
- The $15 reward (Artwork PDF) would change to $5 per month.
- The $45 reward (Inner Circle access) would change to $10 a month.
- The print rewards would be consolidated down to two. $40 a month for US patrons and $50 a month for international patrons. These can't change more due to the cost of printing and shipping, however these rewards would also include Inner Circle access, making them equivalent to the current $70 and $80 tiers.
2. Perform releases entirely via the Patreon feed. A link would simply be posted, and anyone pledging at the appropriate tier could download it. Patrons would get the benefit of being able to access past releases this way. Doing it this way would have greatly simplified issues we had with V0.04 where people were downloading the initial bugged version even though we had sent out a fixed version.
3. Potentially do away with the (new) Inner Circle forum, since we could simply use the Patreon feed for a similar experience without jumping through hoops of having to authorize new users manually.
As a result, here is the summary of pros and cons that we think these changes may have.
PROS
- The experience would be much more intuitive for new patrons (especially those who haven't seen charge per creation campaigns).
- New patrons could simply pledge, be charged, then download the latest game version from the feed.
- Due to the above, new patrons would receive their digital rewards instantly as opposed to days or sometimes months for those that don’t contact me directly and go through the invoice process.
- Patrons pledging at the $3/mo tier or higher would also gain access to older versions, not just the most up to date one.
- A much lower price point for new patrons to be able to experience what we have to offer.
- I think the above could potentially lead to more patrons, meaning more overall funds (which also means more potential developers).
- Current patrons would be pledging the same or less for the same rewards. I feel bringing the Inner Circle tier down to $10 would be within the price range for more people to give it a try.
- I will personally have significantly more time for and have fewer interruptions from development work.
- Releases and patches would be simpler for us, and if there are issues requiring early patching they would go much smoother for patrons as well (remember the V0.04 issues?). Replacing a link is a lot easier than sending out 1000+ messages and hoping everyone sees the newest one :D.
- I can more easily pay fellow developers more often than once every 3+ months.
- I will no longer have to keep and manage new records for so many non-Patreon pledges (since there won't be as many).
- Assuming we follow through with bringing a community manager on board, this person would have a lot less busy work and could focus more on developing the community and bringing new patrons in.
CONS
- Despite the above, I could see some being angry that there isn't always a full release every month. This is after all how I think we gained the trust of so many patrons early on. Granted, as I’ve said previously, our ability to produce content is only going to increase, so this may not be as big an issue later on.
- New patrons would have to put more confidence in us to realize we aren't interested in exploiting patrons like some creators have done.
- Some room for exploitation on the part of patrons is introduced, but if this becomes such a problem that the negatives of this proposed model outweigh the benefits, then we can just change back to per creation.
When would the proposed new campaign model begin?
There would need to be enough time for patrons to be made aware of it so that they can change their pledge amounts/rewards when the time comes, so not for a couple of months most likely.
Would I have to change my pledge manually?
As far as we know, yes (this would be a learning experience for us as well). I would post and send messages to everyone to let them know when and how to do so. Remember, this is all hypothetical for now.
Survey Time!
I’ve prepared a very brief survey for gathering feedback on this. Please comment below as well if you’d like, but please make sure you’ve read the above proposal before taking the survey or commenting. If you don’t understand something or want further info, feel free to ask about it before responding to the survey!
Let us know what you think, and be honest! Please tell us if we’ve overlooked anything that would make the proposed model a negative experience for anyone.
Thanks!
Comments
No man
Well, I would like to see more "stuff" added to the game so I'm up for anything you want to do.
KatakiSenpai
I'm completely fine with this. The monthly payment system is low enough that it really isn't a big deal. I belong to some patreons that charge 15 a month just to receive the monthly update and then don't deliver on some months. So from my experience on this page this charge very little and get around an uodate every 3 month stuff sounds good to me.
but if 3 mth they can push out crappy stuff and i rather have a good update and wait
stoperArt
As long as you menage to maintain that 3 months schedule. From my experience with Patreon, monthly campaigns rarely keep on their initial promises tho'.
Greent
Kudos for doing what you could to innovate the Patreon model. I have no complaints with Patreon, but the big pledge for significant update thing was kind of brilliant. It's kind of like the way you took the rules of the game engine and tweaked the shit out of it to get it closer to your vision. For those reasons it's a bummer to go monthly. But given the realities, like new patrons having to wait or be brought in by hand, and lurkers signing up to nab the goods and split, well it makes sense. Do what makes sense to get your team paid, and I will look at the new structure and adjust my contribution accordingly. The way and amounts you suggest you will adjust the structure and amount makes sense to me.
Basically. The total pledge requirement for the uncensored retail version would still be $20. It doesn't really matter how it's reached :D.
Calvin Young
The $10 and $15 have the final benefit of offering the full game if pledged twice over the development time. Will that be spread out to 6 months, and the others to 3 months?
Big To
I'm for up front payments. It's been bugging me ever since I started being a Patron that I'd have to wait a full month before who knows what will happen, making me antsy about pledging early in the month.
I had the same confusion with the 'per release' method: however, I do like it. This being said, I believe in the project enough to remain a patron either way. It sounds like the way to go, especially if it makes everything more efficient so you and your team can focus on the project.
Vesle Triumphant
Where's the 15$ per month group?
Spookems
Well... To sum all of you typed there in a few lines.. I all for it. Be it monthly or Per creation Dos not matter a rabbits butthole to me, The stuff you make is good enough for me to wait 1-2months even 3 if need be. So Yup Lets get this "new" thing in WIP.
Jamie C.
I understand what you guys are trying to do, I am a little weary of this. I had a bad experience in steam when I supported a game called kinetic void when it first arrived after green light and now I have a dead game in my library that I paid 20 dollars for. Ever since then I have been skeptical of stuff like this. I am not saying that is happening here at all, I like the per creation setting you guys now. But I adore this game to much that Ill put my faith in you guys, plus I really want a That print in the $40 category cause well yea. So If this will make the game survive and be built dodge truck tough then Ill jump. From what yous have already assured I dont think I will regret this like kinetic void. So you have my support on this, so lets sally forth!!!
Tadd Morgan
I will happily pay you and your team each month, your work is stellar and I have no qualms about your integrity!
Mav
I'm for it. All the other Patreons I subscribe to do it that way, and I was sorta shocked when I saw that you offered different. I also can admit that I was very confused when I first joined up on how to get ahold of the game, so the improvement there will be nice for new folks. I think what you've laid out with the tier changes is the smart and well thought out bet. And as long as you post updates to us frequently, we'll know where our money is going. I think you'll be fine.
Yllarius
The only concern I have about this is that you'll get a lot more 'patreon system gaming'. You'll get a bloated monthly value because people will subscribe to your patreon, download the copy, then unsubscribe. While you'll still have us loyal fans, you -may- end up losing money. I personally recommend -some- kind of DRM. Easiest being built into the game itself for the time being, a simple key that can be sent to people have already pledged some money, the # itself shouldn't need to be changed between releases either.
Cereliona
I'd say do it. All of the reasons that you listed in the first place are very good reasons to do it. Decreased time sending links, decreased turnover time on accessing new content, and the fact that as you said, $3 once is a lot more appealing to a curious person than $10 coupled with a rousing game of email tag. One thing not mentioned is that if you keep to the three month between release schedule, those on the current $10 level will actually save a little bit of money. Having been around since before the v.01 release, I think that with your consistency, transparency, and honesty up to this point, you've earned sufficient enough trust to give this a try.
No man
I'm happy with what's going on now, I only have one issue... I would like to see living clothes/body suit attacks from the enemy's... That's about it.
KEEP THIS PLEDGED THING PLS :/ like $10 per game update == the new one seem to like eat more money without good update
Panthear
Maybe a stupid question: Wouldn't it be possible to have 2 campaigns, to satisfy both kind of request? Especially in the higher tiers I do not see an issue, when the people get access to all content at once - and these people shouldn't have an issue paying monthly. However I do see the possible exploit in the 3$ range (think of the people using the "monthly" exploit today, they likely will use the one time signup exploit for 3$). And therefore leaving "this" campaing active especially for the $10 tier seems reasonable. But then again: This will not reduce your work with this campaign :( Too bad Patreon has nothing like a "signup" tier (e.g. 15$ for signup), which optionally can be "used up" for the first 3 month or then just continues in a monthly payment.
We obviously agree with this concept :D, but I feel we're also sort of shooting ourselves in the foot at this point, especially with Patreon bringing a much needed feature to monthly campaigns only.
TheOldDruid
I'm not angry, but I'm not a fan of the idea. MatM has long been my go-to example of how to do Patreon right, of a small team limiting their ambitions to reasonably achievable goals and only charging -after- clear milestones have been reached. I want more Patreons to follow this example, not the other way around. I just backed out of a bunch of $5 per month projects that I've followed for more than a year when I realised that in some cases I'd paid in more than the cost of a AAA title already for a product that is still, generously, in a very, very, very early alpha state... I respect the hell out of all the teams that are trying to bring sex and fetish content into games, but there's something unbalanced about a transaction that just continues on indefinitely with no real conclusion visible. I'm unemployed with some ongoing health issues, I just don't have the resources to keep trickling into Patreon projects the way I'd ideally like. So would I continue to support MatM? Definitely, but not forever... I think after 6 months I'd be pushing either $50 or $60 (I already don't remember where I'm at) and that seems like a fair point to stop, no matter how hopeful or excited I am for the project.
six
I really like the current way things are being done but I still say yes to the proposed change. See so much extra work for you as is and new way is likely to bring in more money and time to focus on the game instead. With your track record I also think there is a great enough reputation that few would doubt your work ethics, always some nutcases out there. ^^ Will be fun to see how the survey went about it.
Maria Luna Celeste
I wish it had been like this when I joined. I remember trying to find your content after pledging and only succeeding when you posted a new build.
Yup, a patron pledging $5 would immediately get access to the newest PDF. Nothing would really stop people from pulling the exploit you mention, but hopefully our monthly updates would be good enough for most patrons to merit maintaining their pledge level. Seems like a lot of juggling to save $2-3, but even so we think the lower price point could mean enough new patrons to make this loss acceptable. Regarding the old demo, it was mainly the shitty quality of the maps that made me want to pull it :D.
MartinX
So, if I pledge $5 a month and get charged, will I immediately get the artwork pdf? Also, what's preventing someone from pledging $1 for a couple of months, and then when a new release becomes imminent, change their tier and get charged just $3 to get the new version, instead of paying 3x$3 as you seem to envision it? Finally, I'm glad that patrons will be able to get access to older versions as well. I never did understand why you chose to cut the human enemies from the latest demo. "Not fitting with the setting" doesn't seem like a good enough reason either, since this is supposed to be an early alpha for testing and stuff.
Martin
The "per game content" was what initially made me pledge, because let's be honest, there's a lot of "promising english Ero-RPGs" that's been abandoned over the years. Every time I find a new one I ask myself: will this one be different? Will the creator bother to stay the course and be able to fulfill her/his grand promises and visions even when they eventually get bored or the hype recedes? I'm still not entirely convinced about MatM. I've been disappointed by so many "golden calfs" before, and this game's vision is grand indeed. Almost unrealistically so. There's a long fall down, and an even longer way ahead before it's finished. However, I'm still here, and I acknowledge the sheer amount of work you've put into this project. I'm willing to stay and give you the benefit of the doubt. Because if you can actually deliver on this one...holy smokes. And decreasing the pledge amounts will definitely make it easier for anyone to justify their patronship, especially when comparing MatM to so many other Patreon game projects of inferior quality that have monthly pledges. I say "do it".
HapsTheHamster
I dont mind the monthly if it will help you guys, for me its mainly that the creator does not go silence for months then I am out other then that I am cool with waiting for game update and only getting some status update and maybe previews :-)
That line is actually pretty confusing and needs to change anyways :D. The requirement for the uncensored retail version is that $20 total be pledged throughout the course of the campaign. 10 + 10 = 20, hence the "pledge twice..." line, heh. So, no worries, your total pledged amount would still remain.
I would happily support a monthly pledge for this project, and I would keep my donation level the same (More rewards,woo!). Personally the way I look at it is MatM has earned my trust for a monthly donation, spending time following the project and reading any of the update posts shows how much passion is going into the game. $3 as an entry level to accessing game updates is pretty reasonable, especially compared to a lot of monthly project reward tiers.
I personally don't have a problem with pledging monthly, and i have seen (and i am pledging) more creators who don't update monthly. I believe if you just keep us updated regularly then there shouldn't be much of a problem, especially if your updates messages are as big as the previous one:)
Darthjake
How would that effect those the pledge twice @ $10.00 and get the full game at release?
I think there are a lot of people in that boat. Due to the popularity of monthly campaigns, I also think there are a lot of people that mistake that $10 for $10/month, which of course could scare a lot of people away.
Olinn
i was initially very hesitant about pledging because most patreon campaigns that i've seen always have very small updates and i needed to pledge 10$ per update to get what i wanted.
